Accusing
Trump of Rape
at Bergdorf's
and Libel on
The Hill E.
Jean Carroll
Says Not a
Screamer
by
Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book
Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE,
April 26 – When
E. Jean
Carroll
testified on
April 26 about
Donald Trump
allegedly
raping her in
Bergdorf
Goodman's in
1996, then
defaming her
in 2019,
Trump's lawyer
Joe Tacopina
repeatedly
objected.
U.S. District
Court for the
Southern
District of
New York
Judge Louis A.
Kaplan denied
most
objections -
and told
Tacopina that
his client
might be
subjecting
himself to
liability
under other
Federal
statutes with
his posts on
Truth Social
(and his son's
tweets).
Judge Kaplan
also ruled
that sexual
assault
ascribed to
Les Moonves,
and funding of
this lawsuit
by Linked-In
co-founder
Reid Hoffman,
would not be
allowed into
evidence.
Inner
City Press
live tweeted
the day's
testimony,
thread here
OK
- Now Carroll
v. Trump
trial, Day 2 -
Inner City
Press is live
tweeting the
trial - now
complaint
about Trump
post on Truth
Social about
Ms. Bergdorf
Goodman being
a "scam"
Before
anonymous jury
brought in,
complaint
about Trump's
post. Judge
Kaplan, to
Tacopina: Your
client is
speaking to
his "public,"
about things
he is not
supposed to
speak about.
Tacopina:
Ms. Kaplan's
office leaked
that two mock
juries found
liability
Tacopina:
I'm not saying
Ms. Kaplan did
it. Someone
from that wall
did it. Judge
Kaplan: Could
have been
someone off
the street who
was paid to
give an
opinion.
Tacopina:
I've read the
article. Judge
Kaplan: I have
too. There
were 37
people...
Tacopina: I
will speak to
my client
about the post
today, I
assure you.
But they have
done it too.
There was a
protective
order that was
not signed or
executed. I
will ask my
client not to
comment on the
case. I don't.
[He went out
Pearl Street
door
yesterday]
Judge
Kaplan: Your
client may be
tampering with
a new source
of potential
liability. And
I think you
know what I
mean.
[Contempt of
court?] Judge
Kaplan:
Anything else?
Carroll's
lawyer
(sounding
happy)
Nothing, your
Honor
First
witness:
Cheryl L.
Beall.
Carroll's
lawyer: What
is your
current job?
Beall: VP of a
cosmetics
company.
Before that,
Prada, Louis
Vuitton...
Carroll's
lawyer: Let's
focus on the
spring of
1996. Where
were you?
Beall:
Bergdorf
Goodman on
57th and 5th
Avenue
Carroll's
lawyer: What
was your job?
Beall: Manager
of the women's
store.
Carroll's
lawyer: How
busy would it
get on
Thursday
evening?
Beall: Busy if
we had an
event.
Otherwise,
rather quiet.
Carroll's
lawyer: On
this chart,
what is FR?
Beall: The
fitting rooms,
dressing
rooms.
Carroll's
lawyer: Where
would the
swimwear area
be? Beall: It
moved. It was
a swing shop.
It was
seasonal.
Carroll's
lawyer: Were
the fitting
rooms
sometimes
open? Beall:
Yes. We wished
they were. But
some sales
associates
tied them open
with ribbons.
Carroll's
lawyer: Could
two people fit
inside? Beall:
Yes. People
shop together.
Carroll's
lawyer: Did
famous people
shop there
then? Beall:
One of my
favorites was
Pierce Brosnan
-- Carroll's
lawyer: How
were famous
people
treated?
Beall:
They were
given privacy.
We didn't like
hearing, I
just saw this
famous
football guy
with a 2d
personCarroll's
lawyer: Had
you seen
Donald Trump?
Beall: Yes, I
saw him on
57th Street.
Carroll's
lawyer: Did
you ever hear
of Donald
Trump being in
Bergdorf's?
Trump's
lawyer:
Objection!
Hearsay! Judge
Kaplan: Not
necessarily.
Carroll's
lawyer: I'll
rephrase. If
Donald Trump
came in, would
you be
alerted?
Beall: Not
necessarily.
If he was
president,
sure, there'd
be Secret
Service.
Carroll's
lawyer: No
further
questions.
Judge
Kaplan: Cross
examination.
Trump's
lawyer: Given
the proximity
from the
fitting room
to the main
area, if
someone
screamed,
would they be
heard?
Beall:
If they
screamed, yes.
Trump's
lawyer: And if
someone's
head- Judge
Kaplan: If a
tree falls in
the forest
Trump's
lawyer: I got
my answer,
Your Honor.
Judge Kaplan:
I know you
did. But you
know where I'm
coming from.
Trump's
lawyer: Did
you maintain
the footage
from the
security
cameras?
Beall:
Sure.
Trump's
lawyer: Could
a person get
it? Beall: I
assume so.
Trump's
lawyer: Did
you have
guards? Beall:
Security
executives
might take a
pass through
the store.
Trump's
lawyer: If a
person had a
security
concern they
could be
approached?
Judge Kaplan:
Were they in
uniform?
Beall: At the
front desk.
Trump's
lawyer: Thanks
Carroll:
That website
uses AI to
help people
find a good
partner. I get
200 letters a
month, how to
find someone
to make them
happy.
Carroll: Let's
turn to the
reason you're
here, what
happened with
Donald Trump.
When did you
meet him?
Carroll: 1987,
at SNL or ABC
Counsel:
What's in this
photo?
Carroll:
Donald Trump,
Ivana, John
Johnson &
me. [It's PX
12, also
labeled
"Confidental
CARROLL
030211]
Carroll:
The
conversation
was about 5
minutes. He
was a
raconteur.
Counsel: Did
you find him
attractive?
Carroll: Yes.
Personable
Counsel:
When do you
believe Donald
Trump
assaulted you?
Carroll: Going
by what I was
wearing,
tights but no
coat, I'd say
Spring. Ms.
Birnbach has
written a
story about
Mr. Trump and
Mar-a-Lago, a
bomb shell --
Trump's
lawyer:
Objection!
Counsel:
Ms. Carroll,
we're not
going to get
into the
substance of
the article.
How did it
help you
remember when?
Carroll: Mr.
Tacopina said
I referred to
1995 or 1996
-- Counsel:
Just, how did
the article
help you
remember?
Carroll: Lisa
Birnbach wrote
it...
Carroll:
She went down
to Mar-a-Lago
in February
1996. I
believe she
would not have
done down
there if she'd
known what
Trump had done
to me --
Tapopina:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
I'm going to
allow it.
Carroll:
I believe it
was a
Thursday.
Counsel:
You've never
before said
that, right?
Carroll: I've
always thought
it. I'm not
100% certain.
But I think
so. Counsel:
Are you sure?
Carroll: I
feel sure. But
not 100%.
Carroll:
I lived in a
cottage in
Nyack. I'd
feed the dogs
then write the
TV show. I'd
drive to Fort
Lee, into hair
and make up.
Live at 4
pm... At
Bergdorf,
Donald Trump
asked me to
help him buy a
gift. I loved
it - it was a
great NY
moment. I
asked, For how
old?
Carroll:
Donald Trump
asked, How old
are you? I
said 52. And
he said, You
are soo
oooold. He was
being funny.
Counsel: What
floor were you
on? Carroll:
The first
floor Counsel:
Did anyone
recognize you?
Carroll: There
was a shopper.
She was tiny,
staring up at
him
Carroll:
He was petting
a fur hat and
he said, I
know,
lingerie.
Counsel: You
mean,
underwear?
Carroll: Yes.
We went up to
the sixth
floor.
Counsel: Was
there anything
discomforting,
that Mr. Trump
had proposed
lingerie?
Carroll: No. I
thought it was
a great story
Carroll:
He was talking
about buying
Bergdorf.
Counsel: Who
else did you
see? Carroll:
I wasn't
looking.
Counsel: How
did you move?
Carroll: May I
stand up?
Counsel: Your
Honor, may
she? Judge
Kaplan: Yes.
Carroll:
There was a
blue body
suit. He said,
Go put this
on. It was
see-through.
They used to
be called
teddies.
Counsel:
Anyone else
there?
Carroll: I
didn't see
anyone.
Bergdorf's is
not busy in
the
evening
Counsel: Have
you written
before you
were
surprised?
Carroll:
Now I find it
surprising.
Counsel: Did
you put it on?
Carroll: No. I
said, You put
it on. It's
your color. He
said, You're
in shape, go
put it on.
Counsel: Why
in the world
would you
think he
would?
Carroll: He
was having a
good time, and
so was I.
Carroll:
The door was
open and I
thought, OK, I
saw it as an
SNL
sketch.
Counsel: Were
you flirting
with Donald
Trump?
Carroll: Yes.
The whole time
Counsel: What
happened next?
Carroll: He
shut the door
and shoved me
up against the
wall. I was
confused. I
laughed
Carroll:
I pushed him
back. He
thrust me back
against the
wall again.
Counsel: Were
you still
laughing?
Carroll: Yes.
I didn't want
to make a
scene, or make
him angry. I
know that
sounds
strange.
Counsel: What
did he do?
Carroll: Held
me against the
wall.
Carroll:
He pulled down
my tights. I
didn't want
anything else
to happen.
Counsel: Did
you say, No?
Carroll: No. I
do not recall
saying it. I
may have said
it. Counsel:
Did you
scream?
Carroll: I'm
not a
screamer. I'm
a fighter.
Counsel:
Would someone
nearby have
heard?
Carroll: Yes.
My head
hitting. And
me laughing. I
was 5'9''
then, I've
leveled since.
I had on four
inch heels. I
weighed 120
then. He
weighed about
one hundred
more pounds.
Carroll:
His fingers
went into my
v*gina. It was
extremely
painful. It
was a horrible
feeling. He
put his hand
inside me and
curled his
finger. As I
sit here
today, I can
still feel it.
[Pause]. Then
he inserted
his p*nis.
Counsel: What
did you do?
Carroll:
I...
Counsel:
We'll need a
moment.
Carroll: I
wonder WHY I
WALKED IN
THERE, to get
in that
situation...
I'm proud to
say I got out
of there.
Counsel: Could
you see what
Mr. Trump was
doing with his
hand? Carroll:
I couldn't
see. Only feel
the pain.
Counsel:
Were you
wearing
underwear?
Carroll: No.
To me, tights
are underwear.
I wouldn't
wear two pairs
of underwear.
Counsel: Do
you know if he
ejaculated?
Carroll: I
don't think
so. Counsel:
Then what?
Carroll: I got
out of the
store as
quickly as I
could Inne
Counsel:
How did you
get out of the
store?
Carroll: I
walked out. I
took the
escalator.
Counsel: Were
you running?
Walking?
Carroll: I'm
guessing I was
walking
swiftly.
Counsel: Did
Mr. Trump come
after you?
Carroll: I was
never sure if
he was behind
me. I rushed
Counsel:
How do you
feel about
your decision
to go up to
that dressing
room? Carroll:
It was very
stupid. It
changed... I
know people
have been
through a lot
worse than
this. But it
left me unable
to ever have a
romantic life
again.
Counsel: What
did you do?
Carroll: I
called my
friend Lisa
Birnbach. She
wrote "The
Preppy
Handbook." I
thought, if
she thinks
it's funny, I
didn't do a
stupid thing.
Counsel: Why
would Lisa
Birnbach think
it was funny?
Carroll: I
hadn't
processed it.
Adrenaline
Counsel:
Do you now
believe any of
it was funny?
Carroll: No,
it was
tragic... I
told Lisa,
You're not
going to
believe what
just happened.
He pulled down
my tights. She
said, E. Jean,
I don't think
that's funny.
I must have
still been
laughing.
Carroll:
Lisa asked me,
Did he insert
his p*nis? I
said yes and
she said, He
raped you. You
should go to
the police. I
didn't go. I
couldn't
Counsel: Why
not? Carroll:
I was ashamed.
I thought it
was my fault.
I was flirting
with him,
laughing,
having a great
time
Counsel:
Then what did
you do, that
evening?
Carroll:
Walked to the
garage and
drove home.
Counsel: That
night, any
physical signs
of abuse?
Carroll: My
head hurt. My
v*gina felt
pain. Counsel:
Did you seek
medical
attention?
Carroll: No.
Counsel:
What did you
do with the
dress?
Carroll: I
kept it. It
was my best
dress. I
thought I
might wear it
again. I
couldn't
believe that
it happened to
me.
Counsel:
Did you keep a
journal at
this time?
Carroll: When
I was younger,
I wrote about
my emotions.
After 40,
about hiking
and my dog.
I'm very
superstitious
- I don't
write bad
things done.
If I don't
write it down,
I don't think
about it
Counsel:
What did you
do the next
day? Carroll:
I went to
work. And I
thought I knew
best. I didn't
see a
therapist. But
I told Carol
Martin. She
was an
anchorwoman at
ABC. I needed
a hug. I told
her, I had a
run-in with
Donald Trump
at Bergdorf's.
Carroll:
I spoke to
Carol at her
house.
Counsel: Who
else was
there?
Carroll: Her
dog Cisco.
Carol is open
hearted. Her
concern was,
Do not go to
the police. He
has 200
lawyers, he'll
bury you. I
agreed with
her. And we
agreed never
to talk about
it. Seigel:
Ms. Carroll
says Les
Moonves
graphically
sexually
assaulted her
on an
elevator.
Judge Kaplan:
Page? Line?
Seigel: 162 of
the
transcript,
lines 12
through 17.
Defendant's
exhibit AA.
Judge
Kaplan: Give
me a minute.
If you're
talking I
can't read.
Carroll's
lawyer Michael
Ferrara cites
a 9th Circuit
case. Seigel:
The rule only
applies when
the witness
had not raised
the issue
herself and
opened the
door, which
has clearly
happened here.
She has
written about
this.
Judge
Kaplan: Give
me a moment,
fellas. What
does the 9th
Circuit say,
Mr. Ferrara,
that requires
the exclusion
of the Moonves
incident?
Ferrara: The
rule excludes
evidence of
other sexual
assaults -
E.
Jean Carroll's
lawyer
Ferrara: We
think of it as
doors. Some
must remain
closed, other
will be opened
-- Judge
Kaplan: Except
at Bergdorf's.
Ferrara: Well
played.
Trump's
lawyer Seigel:
They want to
allow
questions
about the
dentist, when
she was a
child, because
it evokes
sympathy, but
not Moonves --
Judge Kaplan:
Rape of a
child is bad,
but rape of a
woman is not?
I wouldn't
want to hang
my argument on
that.
Judge
Kaplan: I just
read a
scathing
letter in this
case the other
day. You are
carping. I've
had enough of
it. Seigel:
They've opened
the door.
We're
permitted to
rebut it.
Judge Kaplan:
You say an
incident with
Moonves in
1997 also
limited
romance
Seigel: Or sex
Ferrara:
The reason we
came up with
the camp
counselor is
that -- Judge
Kaplan: Forget
the camp
counselor.
Let's stick
with what
we're talking
about. She
says, X
happened and I
have
consequences.
They say,
there was also
Y. Ferrara: We
say Rule 412
precludes it.
Judge
Kaplan:
Counselor, if
your expert
going to
attribute harm
to Moonves?
Trump's lawyer
Seigel: He
intends to.
Judge Kaplan:
Is it in his
report?
Seigel: Yes,
generally.
Judge Kaplan:
I'll think
about it over
lunch.
Carroll's
lawyer
Ferrara: Ms.
Carroll has
said her
second husband
John Johnson
was violent
with her. Not
sexually. But
we think the
reason they
fought must be
excluded,
under Rule
403. Tacopina:
It's relevant.
He got violent
because she
called him an
ape
Judge
Kaplan: The
underlying
reason is not
coming in, it
is a subject
on which the
unfair
prejudicial
effect
outrageously
outweighs any
probative
value, to a
mixed race
jury in New
York, it is
outrageous in
my
opinion.
Tacopina: I've
got your
ruling.
Judge
Kaplan: I know
what you're up
to. Tacopina:
I'm trying to
defend the
case. To not
hear the
reason for
Johnson's
violence, it's
not fair.
Judge Kaplan:
You're
entitled to
your opinion,
but it's not
mine. [Stands
up to leave]
OK,
they're back.
Before jury
allowed in,
Tacopina says
he will ask
about the
"group of men
she claims
have
mistreated her
throughout her
life."
Carroll's
counsel: We'll
take it
question by
question. Jury
entering!
Carroll's
counsel: Do
you remember
the disk I
showed you?
Carroll: Yes.
Counsel: We
offer DX 112.
It's a video
of Roger Ailes
interviewing
Donald Trump,
as grand
marshal of a
military
parade.
Counsel: Who
is Roger
Ailes?
Carroll:
He started Fox
News.
Counsel:
Why do you
think you were
then unable to
form a
romantic
relationship?
Carroll: In
short, because
I was raped by
Donald Trump.
Counsel: Why
did it have
that effect?
Carroll: I
flirted with
him, and he
raped me. So
going forward,
I didn't look
at men
Carroll's
counsel: I'm
sorry to ask
this, but have
you had sex
since?
Carroll: No. I
have a public
persona, then
a private self
that can't
admit out loud
[voice breaks]
that there's
been any
suffering.
Counsel: May I
approach?
Tissues.
Carroll: Thank
you Counsel:
Why didn't you
speak up when
he ran?
Carroll: My
mother was
dying in
Indiana. And I
notice that as
more women
came out and
accused him,
his polling
numbers went
up. Counsel:
Are you
involved in
politics?
Carroll: I am
a registered
Democrat.
Counsel:
Have you ever
donated to a
candidate?
Carroll: $1000
to President
Obama.
Counsel: Who
have you voted
for? Carroll:
Obama.
Clinton.
Biden.
Counsel: What
is your view
of Donald
Trump?
Carroll: He's
vile.
Counsel:
Let me show
you PX 120.
What is it?
Carroll: The
most hideous
men in NYC
walking tour.
In 2019.
[Tacopina
says
something]
Judge
Kaplan: Were
you addressing
me? Tacopina:
We're trying
to resolve
something
without
getting Your
Honor
involved.
[Photo
without text
is now put up]
Tacopina: No
objection,
your Honor
Counsel: What
was that tour?
Carroll:
They do Most
Famous
Gangsters
walking tour,
so I thought,
Why not
hideous men?
In six blocks
of 5th Avenue,
we visited
where well
known men
mistreated
women Carroll:
New York
Magazine ran
an excerpt. It
hit the
Internet 3
days before
the hard copy
magazine. June
21,
2019.
Counsel: Why
not publish it
in Elle?
Carroll: They
would not have
published it.
They would not
publish their
advice
columnist
admitting a
mistake
Counsel:
Were you paid
by New York
Magazine?
Carroll: No,
they paid St.
Martins, like
$7500.
Counsel: Did
you send it to
Lisa Birnbach
and Carol
Martin?
Carroll: Yes,
as an email
attachment.
Neither had a
problem with
it. They are
both writers.
Counsel:
Were you three
interviewed
that June?
Carroll:
Yes.
Counsel: Did
it change your
recollection
of the events?
Carroll: No,
but I hadn't
known Lisa was
feeding her
children when
she got my
call.
Counsel:
After it was
published,
what was the
response?
Carroll: I
thought Donald
Trump would
denied,
because he
denies
everything.
Tacopina:
Objection.
Judge:
Sustained.
Counsel: Let
me show you
his tweet, I
never met her.
You see it?
Carroll: Yes
Counsel:
How about this
interview in
The Hill, June
24, 2019,
where he says
"She's not my
type." What do
you understand
that to mean?
Carroll: That
I'm too ugly
to attack, to
rape. I
thought he was
going to say
it was
consensual.
Then I started
getting
threats
Carroll:
The letters I
got as E.
Jean, they
turned
negative. And
the threats?
Counsel: What
was your
reaction?
Carroll: I
deleted
them.
Counsel: Did
you also get
support?
Carroll: Yes.
From all over.
But the
vileness about
my ugliness,
it swamped it
out.
Carroll
(voice
breaking)
Getting my day
in court, it
is everything
to me. So I am
happy (sobs).
Counsel: Shall
we take a
moment?
Carroll: I'll
get myself
together. This
is my day in
court. I'm not
going to cry
and waste
everyone's
time... I lost
8 million
readers.
Carroll:
I've still got
19,000 readers
on Substack.
But Elle
Magazine fired
me since I
accused Donald
Trump.
Counsel: Were
you able to
obtain a new
job? Carroll:
No. I have a
Substack. For
Elle once a
month I got
$5000. Now I
churn out 3 a
week for the
same income
Counsel:
Have you heard
of Jessica
Leeds?
Carroll: Yes.
I interviewed
her about
Donald Trump
assaulting her
on a plane.
The press
tends to use
words like
grope. I --
Tacopina:
Objection.
Judge Kaplan:
To what? We'll
break here,
the jurors can
go home. But
first...
Judge
Kaplan: Very
important you
don't read
anything about
this case or
go online.
[Jury leaves]
Tacopina: She
said, Other
women had come
forward --
Carroll's
lawyer: She's
covered a lot
today. We
aren't trying
to import
other
allegations.
Judge
Kaplan: Remind
me tomorrow
Judge
Kaplan: OK,
see you
tomorrow.
[Judge leaves]
More
here including
analysis and
Donziger echo
on Substack here
Court
art: Tacopina
and Judge
Kaplan,
courtesy to
Inner City
Press from
Elizabeth
Williams
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